The Monday Meeting: Show me the money
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How much money do you make?
Does that question make you uncomfortable? Why?
Discussing salary and wage has always been a taboo subject, but why. This article from August 2008 in the New York Times touches on some of the issues that people have with discussing their salary:
“It’s a very American, very middle-class phenomenon. The way we were raised is that it was bad taste to talk about how much you make.”
Ideally, people should be paid for what they are worth and for what they bring to the company. But I think we all know that isn’t always the case. Problems like the glass ceiling are predominant in today’s workforce.
According to this post on Penelope Trunk’s blog, transparent salaries are a good thing because they prevent HR and managers from making errors.
Her post sparked a bit of debate in the comments section, with one commenter saying:
“There are good reasons why rank-and-file salaries aren’t public and why most people don’t go around talking about what they make. For instance, a culture of envy is bad for business. It’s best to let each employee negotiate the best salary they can…behind closed doors.”
According to the NY Times Article, when one company made salaries public the manager was bombarded with angry complaints about, “why is he/she making more money than me”.
My opinion: I think that transparent salaries are a good thing and something that should be implemented in the future. However, I don’t think it’s as simple as issuing a memo that states every employees salary. It needs to be a carefully planned out process that is slowly implemented for new and future employees, but won’t necessarily effect current employees at the company.
On another note, I don’t see why the question of salary makes some people uncomfortable. Think about it, if you’re uncomfortable discussing your salary couldn’t that mean you’re either making too much or too little, and you know it.
Let’s discuss. Do you discuss your salary with others, why or why not? What’s your thoughts on salary transparency; good or bad? What’s your companies policy on salary transparency and when someone asks you how much money you make does it make you uncomfortable? Why or why not?
Don’t forget to look for my replies to your comments and feel free to reply to others; it’s a meeting, remember!
In public schools in the US (not sure if this is the same in Canada) there is a scale system for salary. So…everyone with a Bachelors degree on Year 1 of teaching starts with the same salary in a given town. Year 2 you would get a raise, and if you get your masters or Bachelors + 15 credits, or something like that you would get a raise. Therefore, if you know that I am on Year 4 and I have my masters, you could go on my town website and find my salary. Sure, there are problems with this system but in general it’s the most fair way to do it without someone just deciding how much we make (or the crazy “merit” system they want to start- bad bad idea when it comes to kids- we’ll have no teachers in “tough” towns).
About two years ago, they randomly decided to publish the name and salary of every teacher in the town making over $50,000 per year in the town newspaper. Personally, I am not in support of this. I agree with the “culture of envy” comment. I think people never realize what other people do in their job and when you just hear a title and a number you think- UGH I should be making that. I can imagine that a lot of parents looked up the salaries of teachers they don’t like and thought “I can’t believe Mrs. ____ is making $60,000 a year, she is terrible!” etc.
I think this works out a little different in the business world, but I think I agree with you that there should be a system to figure out how much people. That way people would not really be able to complain. In a way, thats how it works for us. I don’t complain about people who make more than me because they have either been here longer or have more education. Great topic!
I think that’s a really point and I actually cannot believe they published the name and salary of all the teachers in the newspaper! This relates back to your interview a couple weeks ago and everyone assuming they can do a teachers job, I can totally see people becoming really judgemental after seeing that.
I think that companies should have INTERNAL policies for making everyone aware of everyone elses salary. But publishing it in a newspaper is a bit much!
It only makes me uncomfortable because I know I’m making too little. I know that people who’ve done my job in the past have been paid a lot more, and it’s because I’m a) young, or b) never completed my degree that I can’t be paid what other people are. It really sucks, because I know I’m bright, a hard worker and do a lot more than some other people would, but it doesn’t seem to matter. If I were okay with what I was being paid, I’d be absolutely fine talking about it – but you’re right – I’m uncomfortable with being paid too little, and I know it. Now it’s just a matter of how to get past it
Have you tried discussing it with your boss? Worst he can do is say No, right..!
I don;t fully talk about how much I make. But it irks me mostly because I know I’m not making the same amount of money as other designers are – especially if they have 8 years experience, and i know for a fact i’m not even making what the lowest salary for designers is making that have the same amount of experience as I do.
Basically there’s 3 salary ranges, and the people who make the least, i don’t even make that! at least not in my area. and that pisses me off because I’ve mentioned this to my boss. and she goes on to tells me, just be glad you have a job. *irks me* I am grateful that i have a job, but i also feel like I bust my ass to make more than what i make. Simple as that.
and i do get nervous especially with 3 other designers that I work with, I have seniority over them, but sometimes i think they make more than i do. Just based on how they live and spend frivolously! but that could be me, I’m just ocd about money.
While the “just be glad to have a job” argument is valid, I get really, really sick of hearing it. What’s the point in having a “job” if you aren’t being valued, right?
REALLY interesting topic, Amber! I agree, I don’t know why – maybe I was raised this way, but you don’t talk about your salaries with people – especially co-workers. As I’ve gotten older I’m more comfortable talking to my friends about it, but still, when I read that first question “how much money do you make?” I almost flinched! So weird how stuff gets ingrained into us.
It’s SO strange the effect that question has on us, hey? I definitely think it relates back to the way we’ve been raised!
I don’t discuss my salary with anyone other then my husband and my parents. I just don’t think its as cut and dry as it seems it should be. There’s too much “baggage” that comes along with it being discussed around the work place. We don’t discuss it at my work and they don’t discuss it at my husbands either. My husband does the work of three full time positions and is no where near paid enough. He’s been through college and uni and has a degree and I’ve been through high school and have almost finished part of a certificate for my position but I make twice as much as him. But at the same time I have over seven years experience and also do the work of three positions.
We have yearly reviews and are rewarded with bonuses and a raise according to projects we’ve worked on, how lengthy and how difficult the projects are, and also our day to day work load. Its a really fare system because your responsible for documenting your progress. So with that being said not everyone in my group knows exactly what I’m working on, so if salaries started getting posted then I could see how that could start some very unnecessary BS :p
I have to say, sometimes I like to know what others make to know if I’m making a reasonable amount. A few years ago, I had no idea before that my friends were making more than $10 per hour and so I had no clue that maybe I should be making a bit more than 8
But, I understand why some wouldn’t want to share that information!
I’m in a unique position at work where, because I keep the books, I know exactly what everyone else makes. I wish I didn’t!
My wage has always been something that I preferred to keep private. It just doesn’t strike me as being anyone else’s business…but that’s more of a personal preference than anything.
Great post!
It makes me uncomfortable because I make too little . If someone asks, I’ll tell them though. But I really have no idea why anyone would ask and still have good intentions.
I think that’s an interesting take on it, why would someone ask and still have good intentions? I guess my point is, why do we feel this way? Maybe someone is curious – I know I’m the kind of person who’s really curious about things like that that – or maybe they just want something to compare their wage too? OR maybe they do have bad intentions. Who knows I suppose!
I have no problem telling someone how much I make, but of course in the context of how I got there and what I do, etc. I make a decent amount of money, but considering I live in New York City and my rent is twice what most people are dealing with, I don’t make *that* much money! So there’s that to factor in too. I also have an additional income tax because I live in NYC.
But for the most part I don’t mind telling people, but people need to realize that my take-home income is probably not what it is for someone else either in my same industry or same city or same experience. There’s really a lot of variables. I would probably only care about finding out what someone else is making at my office, so I can see what I can aim for or what is realistic, especially when it comes to planning for my future and figuring out when I might be able to afford a down payment on a house.
Good point, it’s important to think about WHERE someone lives when you are discussing salaries.
thanks Amber for the great post (as usual) . I don’t like to talk about the financial stuff that much . but because I’m still student I make around 18,000$ /year ( sometimes more because of TA and other stuff- that’s the first time I’m telling this in public). I don’t talk about it with my friends because some of them make less than me and I don’t feel comfortable talking about it . I just told my parents once so they could stop worrying for me!
I think the time I’ll finish school and go to work I won’t discuss salary with my co-workers either ; because if they are at the same situation as me and makes more than me I won’t be happy
I like to keep it private for my own sake and my friends sake 1
I don’t make much money either since I’m a student right now and only work part-time!
Glad you felt comfortable to share your wage on here!
I don’t generally discuss salary with people since I think it’s kind of tacky. I might if I was a bizillionaire though.
Tacky is the only real word to describe it, hey? But WHY do people feel that way, I wonder?
it’s taboo to discuss in our culture because of the envy factor. and the jealousy factor. suddenly you don’t seem worth what you’re getting if you make a mistake. I can’t believe she’s getting $xxx and actually turned in work like that……
i don’t see a glass ceiling anymore. at least not based on sex. as a software developer, i chose my profession because of the high salary availability. i would have been a carpenter if it paid this much. but there are a bunch of ways to get into this industry, and not all of them require a college degree. so people that choose to not go to college end up capping their salary potential around $65000 a year in my industry, as well as limiting their management potential. i have a degree, and don’t mind admitting i make much more than the number above. i also see no salary or management potential difference between men and women in this industry when experience and education are the same. it’s really cool.
That’s good that there isn’t really a problem with the glass ceiling in your industry. I’ve noticed it A LOT, especially where I’m from, it’s mostly a male-dominated workforce and I’ve heard lots of stories about women not making as much as men.
I also think the glass ceiling might be there more then we realize, ESPECIALLY in companies that don’t have transparent salaries.
I don’t mind if people know what I make – but I never ask anyone what they make because I think it is rude. I also would expect that no one ask me.
Great post and topic!!
Great post… I don’t usually chat about salary with anyone other than my family and very close friends… I make a decent living, but I’ve been burned before with friends/acquantances by means of snide comments etc, so I prefer to keep that part out of friendships and social gatherings.
I think a lot of it comes from the fact that in my job I am privy to all the HR/finance info for my area and it’s all kept totally confidential, and that just spills over into my personal life!
I’m kind of uncomfortable talking about how much I make. I only discuss it with my parents & one brother that I go to for advice. My salary increased quite a bit when I took this new job (like 70%), but I now work way more hours and have way more responsibility. The job requires an MBA so the salary is higher due to responsibilities, but most of the people who accept have a ridiculous amount of student loans, so a good portion of my higher salary is going towards my student loan payment!!
I get kind of annoyed with some friends make comments about how I get paid more than they do. I didn’t choose this job becuase of the salary – I chose it because it challenges me and is in a field that is interesting to me. If salary was such a big deal to them, they should have chosen a different career. But really, your career decision shouldn’t be based on salary because $ can only make you so happy (and that kind of happiness is usually pretty temporary – if you don’t like what you are doing, it doesn’t matter how much they pay you).
I think that there is SO much extra stuff behind a salary. If someone asks how much you make and you just say X amount of dollars they might be like, “oh, you make SO much money.” BUT they don’t think about the fact that you work a lot harder and have more responsibility, you had to get an MBA to land that job etc. And it’s not like you say, “Oh, I make X amount of money but….”
Maybe that’s how the conversation needs to go though. I’m not sure. I can definitely see how there would be jealousy among friends, though. AND, you’re SO right Lisa – money is not everything and it can only make people so happy! Like I’ve said before I think the job/challenges etc. is so much more important than the money!
interestingly enough, my younger sister makes at least 25K more than I do, and it does bother me. mostly cuz i feel like i could be in her position if i were hearing. She just has a bachelor’s degree like me, and she does busts her ass at work as well. Even on vacation!
Interesting topic, Amber! I’m not in the working world yet so I don’t have much to say about this topic, however I think it’s really interesting reading what everyone has written. I do work part-time on campus, but everyone there makes the same amount as me.
For me, in general I don’t like talking about money.. I don’t know why exactly.. but I feel like I shouldn’t be judged based on how much or little money I have/make. I just don’t think it’s an important part of who I am. We talked about salary transparency a little bit in my Organizational Behavior class, I think it’s good if done correctly. It shouldn’t just be displayed sort of with no explanation, but rather specific criteria that have led this person to be making this much, etc.
I don’t like to be specific about how much I make, but it also doesn’t make me uncomfortable to ask others once in a while. I know it’s a social taboo, but I also think it’s one we need to get over. At the University, employee salaries are available in the library in a book that can be requested. I’ve often thought of going there to look up a few people, but generally I know what people are making approx. based on their level of experience, management, responsibility, etc. It’s important to know in your workplace GENERALLY where you stand so that you aren’t getting totally low balled. i.e. a coworker who has equal responsibility, job duties, etc is paid considerably higher than you. Know what you’re worth, even if that means you aren’t making what you’re worth for a while. Eventually, you’ll work your way up and be at that place where the hours you put in = the paycheck you believe you deserve.
And also, realize those parts of your job that are worth $ (flexibility, good benefits, extras-game tickets, special event invites, good connections, etc) but don’t necessarily reflect on your paycheck. Because in actuality, those things can be worth a take home salary at the end of the day.
Excellent point. All of those extras on top of salary are just as important – or sometimes more important – than a larger salary!
I don’t usually talk about it, because I was raised to think it was tacky to talk about money. My mom would only tell me what she made when I was a teenager and even then I was told that I couldn’t tell anyone. I think this is kind of silly and my mom does now too, but talking about money can still be touchy. Most of the places I’ve worked have had policies against talking about money, and I wouldn’t do it at work anyway, because as a permanent staff member, I make a great deal more than the student workers who are at about the same place in school and life as me.
I think it DEFINITELY relates back to the way we’re raised. Maybe as our generation starts to be more open about wages and salary the next generation will be even more open? Who knows, I think transparent salaries have pros and cons – as do most things!
I don’t offer up my salary unless someone asks. I don’t mind anyone knowing, but since I’m a nurse people usually assume I make a lot more than I do. It’s my opinion that we earn every penny we make, and probably deserve more. But I am comfortable with my salary.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to talk numbers with coworkers. It just opens up too many cans of worms. I don’t mind discussing money more openly with friends, though, and comparing with my fellow grads…
Interesting to read all these responses and see WHO we choose to share our salary information with. Most don’t care to share it with their co-workers.
If you work in an union environment, then EVERYONE knows the range you make. I have to say that that was the biggest adjustment for me in my current job as I had come from years in the private sector. And on my 2nd day I had people refering to my classification level and knowing my salary grade. It was actually somewhat creepy.
In my case, my coworkers probably know more about what I make than my friends!
I too worked in a union environment for a couple of years so there were basically three levels: on-call, part-time and full-time so everyone knew what everyone else made. I really didn’t find it to be that big of a deal, though.
And I actually made MORE as an on-call employee than a full-time employee because I didn’t get benefits. That was kind of interesting.
When I’m with my friends, I’ll give them a bracket (as in $50-60K a year) to give them an idea. I don’t disclose my actual salaray (not in the aforementioned bracket either!) because I know a lot of my friends make some serious bank based upon the professions they choose and the companies they work for. Is mine a ton? No. Is it too little? Some months yes, some months no. Do I wish I made more? yes, but I will get there in time.
I also have to be careful because I work for a small company and while I’m one of the few on salary here (others are base + commission) I don’t want to upset anyone since we all work closely together. Also, being the boss’ daughter, I don’t want people to think I don’t do enough and get paid to little and it’s kind of private for me. I don’t know, it just is. It’s up there with religion & politics. Aside from a healthy debate about either one, I generally don’t go there.
I could totally see how you would want to keep hush-hush about your salary being the bosses daughter. Obviously you deserve every cent you make but people can be so weird about those kinds of things!
It’s definitely a taboo topic. I think that salaries should be discussed more, because then they would be a little more “fair.” (Meaning, that entry level average joe wouldn’t be making more than the person who’s been there for five years just because he’s friends with so-and-so in the company.) But I also think it can be complicated. If you take two people who have been at the company for relatively the same amount of time, one might put a lot more heart and effort into the job and might be a LOT better at it than the other one. Or, on the flip side, you could have someone who has been there for five years doing the same position as someone who has been there for seven, but the person who has been there for seven might have extra experience with handling customers or good presentation skills or something that gives him an edge.
And to top it off, someone might only be at the company for two years, but might have 10 years experience somewhere else. So basically, there are sooooo many factors that go into it. BUT, it would be great if there was some sort of system, meaning experience accounts for x% of your salary, work ethic accounts for x%, etc etc. And they could leave a little room in the formula for your supervisor’s judgement or a rating system or something! LOL!
I see your point and totally agree; salaries are a complicated thing. That’s why I think having some sort of system – similar to what you suggested – would be a really good thing. That way everyone knows how much they are making and WHY they are making that much. It would be a lot of work to get a system like that up and running at most companies but might be beneficial in the end!
I don’t have much of a salary considering I work 3-4 months a year and am a student the rest of the time, but I am definitely choosy of who I talk to about money. I work really hard in the summer and have had a job since I was 14 and been saving like crazy ever since so I tend to be a little better off then some fellow students. But really I make good financial choices and invest well
PS are you having a great time with your family? I am flying out west in a little over a week and am sooooo excited
I am the same way as you! I actually sometimes feel uncomfortable discussing my money situation with fellow students because unlike a lot of my peers I actually have a savings account and little to no debt. But that’s because I’ve made some really smart choices with my money (and my parents have helped me out a lot)!
I’m having a WONDERFUL time at home! Where out west are you headed? Are you coming this way for Christmas. If you’re going to southern BC you’re in for a treat! The weather is beautiful there right now
I agree that it is in bad taste to talk about your salary, especially with acquaintances! Just seems a little tacky to me and I also totally agree with the culture envy comment.
I try not to talk about my salary with others and if asked about it I try to change the subject if I am not comfortable with that person.
Well my salary is public knowledge and I have no problem discussing it with anyone. My friends and I have always talked about how much money we make and Ive always known how much my parents have made too.
The answer is not NEARLY a flippin much. lol
i dont mind talking about my salary with others- but i’m not working my ideal career job either. I dont feel like this is my big girl job so i dont take it as serious as i probably should. Plus i dont get paid crap so i like to tell people how much i make b/c then people sometimes feel bad for me LOL! hey i’m a poor college student that has no clue what to do with her life! oh well! money is money- it makes the world go round! lol
I use to be pretty comfortable discussing my salary with those outside of my office just because it was a median salary for my age group if not a little on the low side, but for my industry pretty good. I just got a raise back in July so I feel like now I’m a little above my peers, but due to experience and workload I deserve it. However, I have stopped talking about my salary with casual friends. I would still talk to close friends about it.
I think it is a personal decision. If you feel comfortable talking about it then that’s ok, but it almost has to be something that you don’t expect for someone to tell you back. That can be awkward as well when you tell this personal information and the other person doesn’t clue you in…like “small part of my soul” I’m sharing…at least affirm what I’m telling you.
I don’t discuss salary with people because it’s not really anyone’s business, but more importantly because I am underpaid for my education and field and know this as fact. ( If I was at another company I’d be netting at least another 10-15 grand annually) and have to deal with the embarrassment because people to equate finance to success…that being said I like my job and so I deal with the lower salary.
I also don’t dicuss because of the judgement involved, such as I know I have felt jealous of friends that make more and vica versa whereas everyone has different bills/financial plans/ etc and salary isn’t always a fair representation of someone’s financial stability or career worth.
The other thing you have to consider when discussing salaries is where you’re actually living. For example since I live in Louisiana the standard of living is a lot lower here. And when I compare what I make to my friends who work in places like California or NYC, it feels miniscule compared to them. But when you fact in things like the fact rent in double in NYC for an apartment half the size what I have it starts to make more sense. But comparing dollar to dollar amount only doesn’t really seem to be in my favor.
I completely agree with you. Where you live is a HUGE factor!
I feel very uncomfortable talking about salary because I’m very fortunate in the fact that I have a good paying job. I feel bad discussing money with those who are less fortunate…even though I worked HARD to get here. That being said.. I think it’s rude to talk about salaries in general unless you are an elected official, etc. Nobody needs to know how much money I make. Plus, would you go around telling everyone exactly how much your house and vehicle cost? Nope.
I totally agree with you. But my post was more directed at discussing salaries WITHIN the work place. I’m not at all saying that we should be discussing our salary with everyone we know. However, I do think that companies should have a policy in place that allows for transparent salaries.
Oh… I’m totally against sharing salaries within the workplace as well! LOL I don’t want to know what my coworkers make and I don’t want them to know what I make. For the most part, we do the same jobs, but some of us work harder than others – I don’t want the people who make less than me, MAD at me because I do a better job and get paid more… Because let’s face it, some people just wont come to terms that they’re doing a sucky job and will go off and blabber to the whole office how they make less and how unfair it is. We have a case of that going on right now – where a person doesn’t understand why he’s not getting a promotion.. I think adding in the salary thing, would only make things worse.